This Pisses Me Off

Some two-bit hack wrote an opinion post on how web standards are useless and too difficult to understand.

For my own sake, go to that link and feel the same pain and anger that I feel. What a loser.

Apparently not from Dan and Didier's treehouse.

Comments

[Nicole]

I read that yesterday, and wasn't incensed, but more curious about how someone who supposedly has an intimate relationship with the Internet could not believe in standards.

But, I also noticed that he is a web _developer_-- not a designer. Which probably means he works more with backend programming languages than in interface design. So, basically, he's probably writing about web standards having never really learned them or through not have much experience in that area.

I've also noticed that the traditional slashdot-binary-watch-all-your-base-are-belong-to-us geek tends to not be worried about end user experience. (Wide sweeping stereotype, yes, but, if this guy is of that category, then this article makes sense in that context).

Still stupid, though.

[Mike]

No I definitely agree with you there on him being of the developer mindset than one of a designer. What caught me off-guard though was when he discussed how CSS is extremely difficult, and how you need a college degree in order to understand it (paraphrased). For a developer working with backend technologies such as Apache, PHP, ASP, Perl, or whatever, CSS is a freakin' walk in the park! I mean its not even a programming language! This definitely makes me question his own skills, to be honest.

[ak]

hahaha, he has nothing to back up his claims!

his three reasons not to use css are that it's hard, microsoft doesn't, and because they suck. is that not laughable? he then goes on to say that the w3c has been utterly unsuccessful in drafting new specifications.. but what about html? what about xml?

the part that really makes me laugh is that if you look on the left side bar lower down, you'll see a little "made with cascading style sheets" banner.

basically, the guy is just a mad little guy with no idea what he is saying. don't ask me how web standards made him mad, but i have a feeling it was because he was too stupid to learn it himself.

[Nicole]

Just came across this comment that someone had posted below the article:

"Web standards are rarely actually 'standard'. CSS is an arcane, poorly implemented technology that reacts very differently not only on different platforms and different browsers, but also on different versions of the same browser on the same platform. "

What? Yes, it must be CSS itself and not each browser's developers (ahem, Microsoft) that didn't implement it correctly. Wow. Some people really don't have a clue.

And, I agree Mike that if he can program in something esoteric like Perl (for example), then CSS should not be a problem.

[Mike]

I really hope that the link to that little rant makes its rounds throughout the web design blogosphere, because I want to hear other people tear him apart too ;)

Did you notice what books he's published? A slew of books on Flash...... hehe.

[Darice]

I just blogged about his article. I didn't get that mad, I just thought poor him when XML really becomes the standard. And a degree in CSS? please even a non-programmer like me had the basic CSS under the knee in two weeks.

[Paul Michael Smith]

It didn't annoy me too much because I always say, "Each to Their Own" if he finds CSS so difficult then that is him and I dont look down on him for that but what I do get frustrated at is the fact that he then blames it on CSS for being too difficult and doesn't admit to himself that he is not getting his head around it.

[honus]

HEY! WEB-DESIGNER BOY. USER INTERFACE DESIGNER! USABLIITY EXPERT.

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Man, it's so annoying to have to click back all the time. The "developer" you guys all mock had the List Apart webpage open in a new window. I have to give it to him there.

[Mike]

What are you, trolling? :)

[kartooner]

Quoted from the article;

"..the starving African children of high technology.."

The what? Didn't like that article one bit.

[Mike]

What upsets me most about that article are the intentional digs he throws in there regarding disabled people — exactly what you were bringing up Kartooner. I mean seriously, saying that we shouldn't care about disabled people? Does he realize that there are laws protecting disabled people?

I hope he loses his sight one day and has to use a screen reader on his own site. What a treat.

[pixelkitty]

APC is a heap of shit magazine. Has been for the past ten years when they changed their focus from Personal Computers to the Internent, Digital Cameras, Gadgets and Anything Else We Can Pay Someone To Write About.

The author obviously does no web design in the real world nor does he understand the difference between a Bad Browser and Bad Code.

To continually ignore the needs of your site visitors is certain death, unfortunately, most visitors to the APC website are beginners and want to find out what computer to buy - such a pity they could be influenced by the complete and utter bullshit written bu the author and allowed through by the editor.

[Honus]

Man, the only good APC is A Perfect Circle apparently. APC is the crappiest aftermarket car part maker ever, and also a crappy magazine. Who knew?`

[Mike]

I'm going to stop buying APC Power Conversion power strips now too! ;)

But seriously, his article has to be a satire or a farce or something, I mean no one is that ignorant — are they?

[Nigel Goodfellow]

Satire or not, I thought he was a total moron. The whole part about CSS being hard.. umm, what? I picked up CSS over the summer and 3 months later got an official zen garden design accepted. I was 15 at the time. 15. The learning curve is about as shallow as that guy who wrote the article.. Embonter or something? Does anyone even know of this guy? Who cares!

sheesh.

[kartooner]

After reading Zeldman's Designing with Web Standards, Eric Meyer on CSS and a slew of other books I've been picking up on CSS and implementing it accordingly. To be honest, however, I learn something new everyday and for someone to even consider CSS to be challenging.... well, I'd explain to them that anything is challenging -- at first.

Anyone can read a book on Rocket Science and if they devoted enough energy and attention to the subject they could easily learn to become a rocket scientist. The unattainable is for those people that don't feel the need to learn about the subject or don't have any interest.

I chose to learn CSS (albeit gradually) to break my HTML "spaghetti code" habits. I realize how bloated and non-semantic the code was and had an awakening if you may. Never would I quote on my site that I'm an expect because I feel that noone is an expert in their field no matter how many certificates you have hanging on your wall.

To me, we are constantly learning and honing our craft. Be it a hobby that we picked up over the weekend (bikini belly dancing or whatever) or taking the time to learn CSS, we'll never become an expert. Anyone that claims to be should take a step back and realize that learning is part of life and it's something that will never cease.

I've been in debate about this for the past couple of years. Showing people that anyone can learn whatever they please but please remember that even teachers and idols are human beings and people that are learning as well.

The guy who wrote that article doesn't have a clear idea of what he is writing about. It's like these reviews of video games or movies wherein the reviewer (or critic) spends about 3 minutes with their subject and then spend 2 hours writing an article explaining their displeasure for said subject.

It's easy. Spend time, hone your craft, continue learning and enjoy life. Our skills are never perfect and neither are we.

[Mike]

Well said! I've been thinking about it, and one of the reasons I like to work in CSS and semantic XHTML is because it makes me focus on logical constraints and boundaries, and then I have to think in "new ways" in order to fit my creative vision into that grid.

Making information (visual or otherwise) appear to be in a more logical ordering than normal has always been appealing to me, ever since way back in the days where I used to design cars on graph paper in middle school. Not only do I have to rack my brain to churn out something creative, I have to use my logical half in order to fit it into the boundaries of CSS and the user experience.

To me, using CSS is simply a better way of "doing" web design. If you truly want to excel in your craft or profession, you should be at the top of your game at all times, and that is what using/learning CSS is about. This is the next generation of work on the web, and if you're not up to speed, then you might just be left behind.

I think the author of that article was left behind ;)

[kartooner]

I never really thought about it that way until now of course!

Thanks Mike for putting it into perspective. For me combining the logistics, semantics, and aesthetics of design is not only a challenging but rewarding factor of CSS/XHTML design.

By the way, I'll one day make my way into RIT (I applied last year for the Art and Animation program) but in the mean time will continue doing what I do and building my portfolio.

I've already had 4 years of college (1998-2001) and will sometime in the near future continue my wayward path towards edjamacation.

It might be advantageous that my boss here in Rochester, NY is friends with the President of RIT but I'd like to make it on my own without intervention. If need be, I'll just keep badgering you Mike for advice to getting into RIT.

;)

[Carl]

It seems to me that our friend 'David the Programmer' has a lot to learn about web design and architecture, Not only is CSS really easy to learn, but it's easy to use. Furthermore, my sites have never looked so good in ALL the browsers an d platforms. So i think 'David' is a sad, sad man.

[Seth Thomas Rasmussen]

Regarding the designer vs. developer mindset comment at the onset of the comments to this entry... what?

If anything, I've found the more technical, programmer types have a better understanding of why standards are important because they understand the larger scope of it. Not that designers *can't* understand it, rather they are more concerned with other aspects of standards, which is fine.

But do not malign those more on the "developer" side like myself. I am quite familiar with standards and why are important. Furthermore, I'm a big fan. So nyeh. :)

[Seth Thomas Rasmussen]

I actually wouldn't even say I'm more of a "developer" yet, I guess... pretty inbetween, but definitely heading that way. Anyhoo...

[ChrisV]

To play devil's advocate for a bit...

There's a difference between standards and forcing a format on a relatively unformattted media. Disability concerns? If I make a lush animation in flash for web use, finding a way of describing it to a blind user is really a waste of my time AND the user's time, who ins't going to be able to experience what I've created no matter how well I describe it.

In the government sector, we have that sort of "design for the disabled" mentality for all out websites. Fine for informational sites. But when we have to constrain our AutoDAC drafting tips and examples pages to conform to webreaders for the blind, then someone forgot to ask the basic question: "how many blind architects are we developing this for?" We aren't going to be ever hiring blind drafters, simply because the ability to see is an integral part of drafting. When they say that government can't discriminate in job placement, I ask, "how many blind Air Force One pilots have we hired lately?"

How much does the average blind person get out of looking at my old copies of Road & Track? Or from looking at a photography site...

Standards should be used to make things work together for the most part, not ensure that every device has equal access to private information. If you WANT every sort of device and platform and end user to see your site, then yes, use as much standards as you need to get the job done. But requiring everyone use them regardless of intended audience, and berating those who dont, is simply silly.

[Pete Trbovich]

I'm actually disgruntled at the web, too, but in a different way. Although I've recently fallen in love with CSS and consider it far superior to plain HTML, I do consider the whole web design field to be one hairy kludge. In my perfect world, we'd bundle HTML, CSS, and Javascript into one language with a *unified* syntax! No more semi-colons end a line here, no line ending required there, angle brackets there, curly braces here, bang for a comment here, hash sign for a comment there. And how many ways do I need to make text bigger? There's hN tags, "big" tags, text-size specified in % or px or em, or specified from the style sheet in another ten flavors. Not to mention sizing the font itself. Even pro templates I study have one convention here, two other conventions there a few lines down, overlapping backgrounds and boxes specified on top of each other until it's just pork slowing the web browser down. Web design is becoming one big community Perl language. "More than ten ways to do it"...and you're likely to find at least five of the wrong ways first each time. I know it's impossible (or I'm impossible)...